Mist Miss - Desert Build

Designs for inboard or outboard power

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Idigplanes
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by Idigplanes »

Hey desert Builder. i am building a Riveria. Just starting. The transom is confusing me. the plan calls for 2 lams of 1/2". Why not a full 1" piece? Or does this piece need to curve around the transom? I'm confused. Any pics of the transom all framed up together? Thanks for any help.

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Hey Idigplanes, welcome to the forum! I'm flattered that you'd ask me for advice, but I'm not very far along in my build. And the Riviera is a cold-molded design, while my Mist Miss, even though they're similar in length, is a plywood build. The Riviera has a curved transom, while fortunately for me my design is just flat plywood. I believe some of the answer has to do with the "double-diagonal" approach, which is stronger, and it may more difficult to find 1" true thickness plans AND have them curve to fit the transom more readily.

I'd suggest checking in a different thread here in the Power Boats board. Lee's Monaco Utility Build viewtopic.php?f=2&t=35015&start=150 on page 11 discusses his transom, and it's very similar to the Riviera and Lee has posted many photos in the past few weeks of his build so far. That might be a better bet. Best of luck!
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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mrintense
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by mrintense »

Very nice looking boat hook for the deck!!
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

Clipper Boating

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Had a question about options for my keel.

I'm getting ready to purchase additional lumber for the keel and motor stringers. While I have 2x6 14' Doug Fir availability for the stringers, I'm having trouble sourcing material for my keel.

The keel is supposed to be 4" wide, 1-1/4" thick, by 13'-6". The longest of ANY mahogany planks I can find are going to come up short - 10 or 11 feet, maybe a 12-footer. Same for White Oak.

It seems that no matter what I'll have to use a scarf joint for the keel - I don't think you can use a butt-joint, can you?

Should I get 6/4 and have it planed down to 1-1/4" thickness? Does that make the optional 1/4" plywood cap necessary to help hold it all together?

If there is a scarf - where should it be placed?

Your thoughts would be appreciated - thanks!
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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mrintense
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by mrintense »

Andrew,

When I did my keel I used scarf joints and 4S lumber which I laminated together to get the final thickness. As long as the scarf joint is glued up properly and the right ratio for the thickness, it should be plenty of strong enough. I would suggest offset one scarf from the other and try to get it near a frame for additional support (but not on the frame). Not sure how your boat is but mine had an additional set of bolts going through to hold on the skeg. Not much additional strength there but some. Also, my keel was bolted to the knee at the back.

One last thing. It may be possible to reinforce on the inside but you'll have to take into consideration all the stuff you plan on mounting in there down the road. BTW, my plans said that shorter scarfed pieces, laminated together were actually preferable to a single thick pie e as it was less prone to cracking. Another option (but get other's input on this) is to sandwich a thinner piece of plywood between the two hardwood planks.
Carl

Crafting a classically styled Vera Cruise

Clipper Boating

denbrlr
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by denbrlr »

Andrew,

I assume the Mist Miss plans call for two lams for the keel at that thickness. If not, then you will need to get 8/4 lumber. As far as a scarf vs. butt joint, use a scarf joint with at least an 8:1 scarf ratio. You can check out my build thread so see how I cut my scarf joints with a jig and my table saw. It worked like a champ. I also made my motor stringers from two lams and scarfed them. I have more details about the jig in this area of my thread. If you use two lams for the keel, don't put the scarf joints of the two lams too close to each other.

Lee

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Thanks, Carl and Lee. Lee I re-read your Monaco build thread. You seem to be cruising along about six months ahead of me and was very helpful.

My plans only call for a single-piece keel, with an option for a 1/4" ply on top. I should be able to get 10' lengths of 6/4 (rough 1-1/2, S2S 1-5/16, should be able to plane to 1-1/4"), so with a 9' section and a 5' section, the scarf at least wouldn't be under the engine block. I suppose the ply is "cushioning" for the keel? I wasn't sure if the cracking references were simply because of wave impact and/or additional stresses. (and why multiple scarfs are preferred?) I'm hoping to use Sapele, which wouldn't be as hard/dense as white oak, but stronger than African (Khaya) or "Genuine" (Swietenia). I'm putting in an order tomorrow, plus some additional 4/4 stock for the battens and chines.

Two forward looking questions:
  • When laminating a sheer or chine, has anyone used a fiberglass or aluminum insert? I know it's not in the spirit of an all-wood boat, but with all of the caution of bending, splitting and cracking, I didn't know if that could be entertained. I saw something like it on a "Tips from a Shipwright" video on YouTube, and it looked like it would add strength to the member and flexibility to the implementation.
  • Is there always a need for a skeg or fin? If so, which is preferable?
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

denbrlr
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by denbrlr »

Andrew,

If you are concerned about the bending of the sheer or chine logs, you could always add an additional lam and make all of them thinner. For example if you plans call for three 1/2 inch lams for the sheer (for a total of 1.5 inches), you could make four thinner lams that add up to the same total thickness to make them easier to bend. Using good straight grain wood for the pieces that will be bent also makes a big difference. On my Monaco, bending the chine logs went better than I expected with no breaks and no steaming or towel/boiling water. The sheer on the Monaco has a tighter bend. I did wrap the lams in a towel and poured boiling water on them and that helped quite a bit. However, I did have one break due to a wave in the grain that I didn't notice.

You shouldn't need to worry about strength if you build the boat to spec. and end up with the sheer and chine logs at the thickness that are called out in the plans. Glen-L knew what he was doing when he designed these boats :)

As for a fin or skeg, if the plans call for one then I would put one on.

Lee

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Thanks, Lee - I was debating between the two - my plans say that either are optional (none are required) and the plans show specs for both the skeg and the fin. So I was wondering which was preferable. I'm assuming the skeg is easier with trailering and shallower depths, while the fin might be better for tight turns/watersports? Was just looking any other advantages for one vs the other. I'm a ways away still . . .
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Well, next time I'll looks around more before asking general questions. I found this article on the Glen-L site:

https://boatbuilders.glen-l.com/56256/skeg-versus-fin/

Looks like my assumptions above are correct, and I'm leaning towards a fin. It seems that fins may be more adaptable - meaning that there could be a wider variety of fin shapes that can be used to make it a little more skeg-like, almost a hybrid. Crazy talk!
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Wow, it's been a month since my last update! Time sure flies when you're quarantined. First of all I hope everyone is staying safe and healthy during this pandemic. That being said, there's nothing like sheltering at home to work on a boat project. So here's an update on my Mist Miss build as we get into the second half of April.

Unfortunately, March wasn't very productive. I came off my 54.75 hours on-project in February with a whopping 13.75 in March. As I had mentioned, I completed the final frame 7 on March 3rd, and then didn't go into the workshop again until the 14th. And at that point only did weekend work for the rest of the month.

I ended up puttering about, not committing to any decisive course of action, while contemplating next steps and paying closer attention to the news. And goofing off a bit. To give my wife and neighbors an idea of what was to come, I laid out all of the frames in the driveway, in a quasi-boat shape. The spacing wasn't accurate, and I'm not going to be sitting on the floor, but it's a good visualization.
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I then even made up a task of stylishly numbering my frames in a 50s-style font (completely unnecessary but I think it looks cool).
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Lastly I put my "boat company name" on the inside of the transom, where only the fuel tank will see it. "Aquarro" (the original, 2, 3, and 4) were my grandfather's boats, the last of which I spent some of my youth on. I won't be naming the boat Aquarro (the name is still to be decided), but it'll be an "Aquarro Craft" product.
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Not professional at all - used two different blue Sharpie markers, and the grain of the marine plywood made it look "wavy".

During this period of goofing off, much of the back of my mind was thinking about three tasks that would need to happen next:
  • Building the set-up form for assembly
  • Encapsulating all of the frames
  • Cutting and scarfing material for keel, battens, sheer and chine
So instead of doing those things, I went shopping, and put in some additional purchases (and prep work):
  • An order for all of the silicon bronze carriage bolts I should need. I used BoltDepot.com and found decent pricing and a wide variety of sizes. Shipping took a little longer than expected, but I didn't need them right away.
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  • The System Three Silver Tip Epoxy Kit with slow hardener, plus the System Three plunger pump kit - both from Glen-L.
  • And I was fortunate enough that my local Woodworkers Source had some 6/4 Sapele that they were able to mill, plane, and sand down to the exact size for the keel. They didn't have the lengths, though, so I'll still have to scarf the pieces together. They even delivered!
  • I also picked up some vintage Wilcox-Crittenden boat vents on eBay (it'll have to be re-chromed), but from now on I'll have to cut myself off until the after the flip.
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I spent a day ripping 4/4 Sapele into batten widths (1x2), though they'll have to be scarfed (my longest piece is 10' currently). I whipped up a "scarfing jig" for the battens from some scrap plywood.
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Once the System Three Silver Tip arrived I started to get busy in April with encapsulation. +1 to the folks that recommend the plunger pump kit - so much easier (viscosity has to be a major part of it) than the Poxy-Grip. I don't have that much space, so I was limited to doing 2 frames at a time. And it was experimental time applying it. I started with frames 6 and 7, and I applied way too thick, and ended up doing touch-ups and hardened drip-management. I've done 3 coats per side, with exception of the areas that will be bonded to the hull or longitudinals (a single coat for those, and they'll get Poxy-Grip later).

I made a deal with the Admiral that if I pulled her vehicle out to the driveway for a week, I can be done with encapsulation much faster. Now that frames 6, 7, the stem and breasthook are encapsulated and in the rafters, I'm currently spinning plates in 2 garage stalls. Frames 1 (smaller) and 5 (largest) are in my dust tent, and Frames 2, 3, 4 and the transom are on several folding tables in the other slot. 3 coats per side x 2 sides plus any touch-ups - should be done with encapsulation of frames by the end of next week.

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I have to find a better applicator. I started with a 4" foam roller ("hot dog") from a Lowe's brand. That led to a lot of bubbles, but I figure I was going too fast. Now I have the same type from a larger Amazon pack, and they really don't ROLL, they slide. Which is good for straightaways, but they're getting torn up and falling apart after 2 frames (I'm doing 6 at a time). I didn't realize there was such disparity between "4-inch foam rollers". Again, no one will see these, and they may end up painted with bilge paint, and I'm practicing my craft on these frames, but it's pretty frustrating. Also the first frames I tried cleaning with denatured alcohol (works well getting ground-in sawdust out), but the bag-o-rags I got for that from Lowe's ended up getting caught on the Sapele, leaving lots of fuzzy lint reminders in the grain, especially on the plywood gussets. Ugh!

The good news is that I've been working on a scrap piece, meticulously prepping, sanding, cleaning, and applying (multiple coats), and it's looking like glass. So when it gets to the bright work I should have enough aptitude (knock on wood).

Aiming for completion of encapsulation of frames AND creation of set-up form by end of the month. We'll see - fingers crossed!
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

hoodman
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by hoodman »

Nice work. You're really getting into the swing of things. It's great that you are carrying on the tradition of boatbuilding from your grandfather.
Matt

Building a Geronimo......!
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=25139

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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by footer »

I used the little 4” micro fiber rollers. I liked them much more than the foam rollers epoxy, but that’s just my taste. I did get some fibers here and there, but they were easy to pick out.
Good choice going with System three. Remember, you can use a propane torch to get rid of bubbles in it. If you’ve never done it, you just wave your torch quickly over it and they disappear. Works great!

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sproggy
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by sproggy »

An electric hot air gun (used for paint stripping) works well for releasing bubbles too and is arguably safer around a load of sawdust than a propane torch :)

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acflynn
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Re: Mist Miss - Desert Build

Post by acflynn »

Well, hello again, Glen-L forum members! My first post in (checks page) - Yikes - two months!

However, I took off the entire month of May while dealing with other pandemic-related tasks (grocery shopping for elderly in-laws, figuring out "home school" for the kiddos so they could actually move on to the next grade, etc.). But I will say some progress has been made, especially recently.

Today's update is that I was able to find and acquire potentially the only clear Douglas Fir planks in long lengths in the Phoenix area for my motor stringers (which have to be about 13'). I know others have laminated from smaller stock and then done scarfing, but let's just say I'm lacking in confidence in that department so far.

Step 1 - rented a U-Haul pickup truck (not bad, actually - at least it had AC)

Step 2 - Drive 40 miles to Spellman Hardwoods, on the other side of downtown Phoenix. Spellman has tons of plywood (but only 3/4" marine) - mostly for cabinetry. Their Douglas Fir was S2S 2x6 actual - in 24 foot lengths only. I felt bad asking them to cut them for me - I requested 2 14' pieces, but so long as the remnants were 8' or larger (in this case 10') they have no problem re-selling.
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Step 3 - The boards were pretty rough, which helped keep them from slipping on the drive back. But wondering how I would edge them properly caused me to stop by my Woodworkers Source (where I get all of my mahogany) and have their mill services team sand, edge, and plane them down closer to 1-1/2 by 5-1/2. There was a little uneven-ness, but the end result was 1-5/8" x 5-1/2" S4S. But they were really slippery on the 15 mile drive home - I had to pull over twice to secure them.
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Next step: Cut notches in the stringers for frames 1-6 and the transom, and build my set-up rig, which will involve some garage cleanup and reorganization.
Slowly building a Mist Miss in the Arizona desert

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