Stuck throttle on my Zip!

About inboard or outboard motors.

Moderator: Bill Edmundson

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Andy Garrett
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Location: Nampa, Idaho

Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:33 pm

Thanks for the knife plug Roberta! (I have a few available. lol)

Yes Hoodman, my transom was shaped for a 20" shaft. I'm proud of exactly how perfectly aligned with the bottom my motor is too--worked hard on this area.

I've spent the last few days shopping for options. I've looked at Tohatsu, Suzuki, Evinrude and a couple used Mercurys from the early 2000s. Among the thing I've learned, is that NADA values on used motors mean NOTHING. A 2004 Merc 50 booked at $1140. The price is $5,000 installed with controls including my trade value. For that money, I'd buy a new Suzuki. Tohatsu might be the best bargain in new motors. They make certain engines for most of the other brands anyway--just a different sticker.

I had a great discussion today with the owner of Indian Creek Marine. The main problem with my existing motor is fuel draw. It runs fine, but I have to squeeze the bulb every minute or so to keep the engine running, especially at idle. I made an error putting my tank under the deck up front.

I'm pulling the boat to his shop Monday. If it passes a leak-down test with less than 10% loss, he'll work on it and rebuild the fuel pump. If not, he won't touch it.

In the mean time, I resurfaced the gouged metal in the control unit, polished it, a lubed it. Smooth as silk now, but I suspect I just bought myself some time.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Sat Mar 16, 2019 11:36 pm

If it passes the leak down, and I get the fuel pump reworked, and it still has trouble pulling fuel through ten feet of line, maybe I'll just get a smaller tank and relocate it when I re-do the deck and seating.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Bill Edmundson
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Bill Edmundson » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:06 am

Andy

Just for info. Suzuki is coming on strong down here on the Gulf Coast. The big thing is, can you get support?

I know you've taken a direction already.

Bill
Mini -Tug, KH Tahoe 19 & Bartender 24 - There can be no miracle recoveries without first screwing up.
Tahoe 19 Build

gdcarpenter
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by gdcarpenter » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:56 am

Hi Andy, I understand that the older 4 banger Mercs like yours only weigh about 135 lb. or so, what my Mark35A was spec'd at.

On my ZIP I, at one time, I had my fuel tank below the bow and had no issues with fuel supply, and that was running the fuel through a very fine fuel filter/water separator. Hopefully rebuilding the fuel pump will help.

I did have issues having to squeeze the bulb to keep running for a year or so. Eventually discovered the problem with some luck. Out of desperation I bypassed the fuel connectors at the engine and all was fine. Seems one of the Mercury bayonet connectors was not fully opening when the two were connected. Replaced the connectors and all was well. The misalignment restricted the opening and caused fuel starvation.
This is my first, last and only boat build.

http://www.gdzipbuild.blogspot.com

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vupilot
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by vupilot » Sun Mar 17, 2019 7:05 pm

Andy,

I had several running issues early on with my 1975 40hp motor. First the brand new primer bulb failed. Then I had issues idling, and starving of fuel at full throttle, rebuilt the fuel pump diaphragm, which is actually super easy, and it ran great for 2 seasons. Then I started chasing a misfire for over a year. It turned out to be old coils with hairline cracks but I changed out the switchbox chasing the issue. Two (2cyl) new coils were put on just before I sold the boat. The new owner ran it all last year without an issue. The point is, these motors are pretty simple and parts are still out there or made new in many cases. The frustrating part for me was just locating the right part number over superseded part numbers. Hopefully your issue is as simple as the fuel pump diaphragm, it sounds like it maybe the case since its worse at idle. If I had kept my boat I probably would have put a new 25hp on it eventually. Seeing the videos of Joshua's Zip with the 25 affirmed to me the 25 would still be just enough power for us.

Brand new motors arent without their issues either. My brand new 9.9hp I had to take the carb off and file the plastic float hinge-pin flange just a tiny bit to keep the float from sticking and killing the engine from fuel starvation. The only outboard I had absolutely no problems from was the 2001 8hp I had on my Glen-L utility. Seems like the late 90's and early 2000's were good years for any brand of outboard. Just thought I'd throw out my experiences with both new, old and late model outboards. I'd give yours a little lovin' and see how it does for another season.

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:14 am

Super grateful for all the perspective gang. Thank you.

So here is the deal:
Took it in to the mechanic this morning. They did a leak-down test on each combustion chamber. All four were excellent.
We talked options and we both agreed that the boat needs an older motor to look correct. We discussed a fuel pump rebuild ($400-$500) and no guarantee that it would solve the problem.
I told him I'd think it over and discuss the expense with my wife.
Almost as an after thought, he told me to check my fuel lines. It seems that the EPA mandates a different line type for boats with a separate polymer liner inside it which quickly turns brittle when in contact with fuel. I had one two-foot section of old line at the back spliced to all new line all the way up to the new bulb and tank. The liner on the old line was in chunks--clogging as much as 85% of my fuel flow from a visual assessment.
Then I checked the 'new' lines (installed 5 years ago). Those liners were broken down where stressed at the splice points where they were pressed onto the barbs and hose clamped tight. They weren't obstucting anything yet though.
Now, I'm off to see if a better marine compliant brand is available (mine is Atwoods). If not, I will use automotive rubber.
I have to believe this is a problem on other boats too. I can't be the only one.
Updates forthcoming.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

TomB
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by TomB » Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:40 am

Andy,

Food for thought.

From the USCG Fuel System regs--(from a homework assignment Paul Kane gave me)

FEDERAL LAW:
183.540 Hoses: Standards and markings.
(a) “USCG Type A1” hose means hose that meets the performance requirements of:
(1) SAE Standard J1527 DEC85, Class 1 and the fire test in Sec.183.590; or
(2) Underwriters’ Laboratories, Inc. (UL) Standard 1114.
(b) “USCG Type A2” hose means hose that meets the performance requirements of SAE Standard J1527 DEC85, Class 2 and the fire test in Sec 183.590;
(c) “USCG Type B1” hose means hose that meets the performance requirements of SAE Standard J1527 DEC85, Class 1.
(d) “USCG Type B2” hose means hose that meets the performance requirements of SAE Standard J1527 DEC85 Class 2.
NOTE: SAE Class 1 hose has a permeation rating of 100 grams or less fuel loss per square meter of interior surface in 24 hours.
SAE Class 2 hose has a permeation rating of 300 grams or less fuel loss per square meter of interior surface in 24 hours.

TO COMPLY WITH THE LAW
• Is the hose marked?
• Does the marking contain all the following? (1) “USCG Type A1, A2, B1, or B2”
(2) Year of hose manufacture
(3) Manufacturer’s name or trademark
• Are all the letters and numerals at least one-eighth inch high? and (1) Are the markings permanent?
(2) Legible?
(3) In the English language?
(4) On the outside of the hose?
• Are the marking intervals on the hose 12-inches or less?

Glad you're on the way to a solution,

Tom

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:15 pm

Five year old Atwoods line vs new Mercury line.
Attwood on the left
15529363460591972821792.jpg
Ethanol destroys the liners. The Merc line is supposed to be far superior and I should get a far longer service life.

I always try to run ethanol-free, but it's not always available.
Last edited by Andy Garrett on Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:41 pm

Success!
Engine running great on last year's fuel!
Had to adjust my idle by four spins due to increased fuel flow, but no sputtering or hesitations.
Sigh of relief...
15529417235881820547799.jpg
Now I'll just be on the look out for a good Mercontrol for parts or future replacement.
I'd like the two lever style, but with an electric start, that's a bit problematic.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:54 pm

15529424326371627044017.jpg
Celebration time!
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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Andy Garrett
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:58 pm

Tom,
My new hose is USCG TYPE B1.
Made by Mercury.
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

TomB
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Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by TomB » Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:06 pm

Congratulations Andy. I recognized the Gray hose, same as my Merc (12 years old). I wouldn't have thought to look for crumbling hose lining.

Handsome boat and trailer. I noticed the end caps on your trailer. Had the same style on my trailer, until I didn't. I wish I had put in set screws so they would have stayed put even after the plastic barbs got tired.

Tom

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Andy Garrett
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Location: Nampa, Idaho

Re: Stuck throttle on my Zip!

Post by Andy Garrett » Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:07 pm

Good tip on the end caps. Thanks!
Andy Garrett

Perhaps the slowest Zip build in Glen-L history...

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