Thoughts on Titebond III

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jbrandt
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Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by jbrandt » Thu Mar 22, 2012 5:45 pm

i am a huge fan of titebond III. it has held up for me over the years in boating repairs as well as many other woodworking projects. i will be using it for sandwich joints for sure. in comparing it to epoxy, i am wondering if it is possible to thicken it with either a silica type substance or maybe even oak shavings to achieve the desired consistency for reinforcing joints, as many people use epoxy. I believe that titebond adheres better to roughted up white oak than epoxy. any thoughts on the subject?
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DaveLott
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by DaveLott » Thu Mar 22, 2012 6:44 pm

There are some tests that show titebond to be superior to epoxy for adhesion. But epoxy had a lot of benefits such as transparency and waterproofing. We should not be too narrow minded about products but use each to their best usage
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by gdcarpenter » Thu Mar 22, 2012 8:07 pm

Love Titebond III for what it does. Used it quite a bit on my build, even to glue up the half lap joints on the frames. Have used it for a lot of exterior construction on pressure treated wood and it has stood the test of time. It is designed for tight fitting joints and good surface to surface contact. My experience has been that trying to thicken it weakens it considerably, but that's just been my personal experience. As much as titebond is much more user friendly than epoxy, for so so joints I that benefit from thickeners I would stick to epoxy.
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by slug » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:31 am

I agree with Carpenter on this one. I've also used Titebond on good tight joints, but on anything else I go with the epoxy.
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by jbrandt » Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:51 pm

sounds like what i was thinking. use titebond on the tight joints and sandwiches, then use thickened epoxy for the edges of the joints to expand the strength on the outsides. im a firm believer in roughing up the wood surfaces a lot to help give the glue and epoxy something rough to adhere to.

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by Caber-Feidh » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:27 pm

The problems with the stuff are enough to make it not worth consideration.

It is not waterproof, shears in saturated wood easily. Worst of all, the only other adhesive that will stick to it is CA. Epoxy will not stick to cored PVA glue. Makes a repair difficult, and encapsulation will fail at the glue lines if exposed or PVA saturated wood is coated with epoxy.PVA will creep, and the greater the load/pressure, the faster it happens.

In the end, the negatives vastly outweigh the cheapness of the stuff, Do yourself a favour, and use epoxy
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by jbrandt » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:14 am

WOW! That's enough to make a man think about it! lol There sure are different opinions out there. I have heard some rumors that the epoxy doesnt like to stick to white oak sometimes. I am guessing that would be when the wood is super smooth. Any thoughts on that?

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by svenole » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:32 pm

Rough up some scrape and test it !

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by Caber-Feidh » Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:23 pm

Personally, I use resorcinol exclusively for frame joints. Ya, it's a PITA to use, temp has to be >68 through cure, and joint has to be a perfect fit, but it doesn't fatigue-fail like PVA, Epoxy, Polyurethane, or UF. According to US forest products lab, epoxy/oak is a road that always arrives at a failure, but the cause is a mixture of a lack of penetration into the wood, and a wood that is rigid enough to transfer more loading to the joint itself. Simply put, the epoxy is weaker than the wood, under cycles of tension/compression epoxy looses around 40% of it's strength at around a thousand cycles if I remember correctly. The oak itself is virtually unaffected by more than a million cycles.

I guess it all depends on what a person is willing to work with, and how long lasting/strong they expect the joint to be. You could build a boat with LePages paste, and it would work... for a while. More than anything, mfgr's know their products, if it says "not for use below waterline" or anything similar, using it for boat framing is just stating you are sure you know more than the engineers that formulated to product. That usually ends badly in my world - very badly.
Some plan to stroll through Saint Peter's Gates, I plan to go through them at 150mph... backwards... in a screaming ball of flame, with a glimmer belt wrapped around my head, and a NOx button in my hand.

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by Old aussie » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:34 am

Hi,,,,
Another question on epoxy glue, has anybody used techni glue. CA . and what do you think of it.

Peter........

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by jcallends » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:58 am

Time to clear the air! Everything said about PVA (polyvinyl acetate) is true except Titebond, Titebond ll, and Titebond lll do not contain any PVA. All three are different products. To infer that water based products will not resist water immersion is fallacy. You only have to look at the multitude of water based paints intended for exterior use and they have been around since the 50s.
For some good information on "Wood Glues" look it up at: www.wikipedia.com

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by jbrandt » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:23 am

then let the testing begin! i am doing some tests with titebond III starting today. i will be testing different things such as simple strength under pressure, adhesion to the wood itself, water immersion for days/weeks, and boiling. i am guessing that titebond will stand up to the tests quite well, but time will tell. i will use quartersawn straight grain white oak heartwood, as well as marine plywood for the tests and will use different types of joints, and will supply pictures. i will also go out on a limb and try to thichen the titebond with a filler and see how that holds up. i will be testing the same exact process with epoxy, and will be comparing the results. give me a week or two on this and i will post my results. may the force be with me!

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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by gdcarpenter » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:23 am

Eagerly awaiting your test results!!
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by Caber-Feidh » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:16 pm

jcallends wrote:Time to clear the air! Everything said about PVA (polyvinyl acetate) is true except Titebond, Titebond ll, and Titebond lll do not contain any PVA. All three are different products. To infer that water based products will not resist water immersion is fallacy. You only have to look at the multitude of water based paints intended for exterior use and they have been around since the 50s.
For some good information on "Wood Glues" look it up at: http://www.wikipedia.com

You are really quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source on anything? That is a mistake.

Titebond.au website: "Waterproof Titebond III is a shelf stable, one part (pre-catalysed) cross-linking PVA adhesive. ... Titebond III is the most advanced wood glue available today"

I will never figure out why people will say how they MUST use the finest marine ply they can get, then stick it together with the cheapest crap they can find at the local box store. When a product engineer says not for use below the waterline, and not for continuous immersion... I tend to believe what the engineer says. Stick with Glen's epoxy, or Resorcinol. Both are intended for, and rated for use in marine applications by engineers that have spent more $ and time creating them than you would ever imagine.

Exterior use, and marine use are as far apart as something can get. In the even of a failure of one, your Adirondack drops you on your butt in the front yard, when there is a catastrophic failure of the other, everyone aboard will get a swim, likely while bleeding, and could very easily be dead. - big risk to prove you know more than the product engineer.
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Re: Thoughts on Titebond III

Post by raymacke » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:49 pm

Out of necessity, above the waterline I use lots of Titebond III building my Cabin Skiff. All the exterior Titebond joints are covered with epoxy - all the interior joints are covered with latex paint. After 12 years and 28,000 miles of use and abuse not a single failure or problem. My tests trying to thicken it didn't fair well so I didn't. Also tried using it to saturate and fill fiberglass cloth - that didn't go well either.

On the hull of the above build I also used white oak for all the solid wood and epoxy to bond it . The oak was roughened before application and there have been no failures there either.

For the record the experts at the Forest Products Lab also state EPOXY is a poor adhesive for exterior wood and will fail when the wood becomes saturated. http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf20 ... art003.pdf And I am not sure but don't think epoxy can pass the boil test if you are so incline to use that as a standard.

Just as there are no perfect boat designs there also is no perfect boat adhesive - all have limitations. As a boat builder you look at the available products and make the compromise that best suits your project. You may then have to suffer ridicule from others that don't agree but most of us understand we are making home built boats - not space shuttles.

Sure resorcinol and epoxy are superior in many respects but Titebond can have a place in you boat building shop.
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